Last week, I sat down with British experimental hip-hop artist Gao the Arsonist to chat about his musical journey, Tyler the Creator’s “Yonkers,” the future of Gao, and what it means to be sludge-pilled.

LIZ FOSTER:

I guess I want to start with the most basic of questions, when did you start making music? Were you into making music as a child and now as an adult? In short, how did we get here?

GAO:

Okay, so I have said this quite a few times over the years, but music has kind of always been a part of my life. My parents got me this tiny blue acoustic guitar when I was five years old. But I didn't really, like start enjoying music until I was like eight years old. From then, I was writing shitty love, pop songs for my youth. And yeah, I continued that until I was about 13 in seventh grade. I had just been kind of writing songs and keeping them in my brain.
But in seventh grade, my best friend at the time hung around the older kids who were kind of the established producers of the school, so they would be into DJing and production, whatnot. And he was kind of, you know, he was in that environment. He kind of took that up and I kind of started production to fit in, I didn't want to kind of be left on the outskirts. I remember the day I came to school, and I had pirated Ableton. And I remember that day, the older kids literally ran down the corridor screaming being like, ah, Ableton.

I felt very included in this little community once I got the software. And then I started becoming more obsessed with production. I would make beats in class with earphones in, like, hiding from the teacher, or in the corridors. And it was really bad; in my environment, the only context I had for production was EDM. So, music has always been a really big part of my life. And I grew up in church, so I heard gospel music, like everywhere, but I never listened to music. Even when I was making music. It's very strange…like the only music I would hear is music on the radio or songs that just were internationally huge. Like, I don't know, Adele or something.

Oh, so it was “low effort” in terms of like, trying to find—I keep saying tunes. Or was it?

It's not even low effort, it’'s no effort. Like, I just did not listen to music. The only reason I started actively listening to music is my same friend that got me into production. I started again, in that circle, it was mostly EDM and house music and whatever. So I was making these terrible house beats. And eventually, I kind of combined my pop song writing with my newfound production skills, and I started recording, still shitty pop music, but it felt very fresh because I could finally have something physical almost. Before, it just kind of existed in my head, but now I could manifest these songs into reality. But after that… this is gonna sound really, really bad.

But when I was 14, I remember the day I was sitting on my desk, and I was like, it'd be way easier for me to learn to rap than to learn to sing. And from that day, I was like, “Okay, I will rap now.” But we went from that place to a very genuine passion for hip-hop as I learned more about the genre and as I listened more, My friend also helped me with that as well because he also kind of fell into hip-hop too. And yeah, that was that. I started recording seriously and started releasing music on SoundCloud just to warm up to the idea of releasing this music into the world. I would say, I got serious about music around 2018, but I only started putting out work that I was proud of in 2019 where I had my debut album, Autopsy of a Degenerate. And from then, it was history.

That was a very clear timeline, I can envision. That's funny that the transition to rap was almost, like, convenience, but clearly it worked.

Yeah, no, I love it. I really do! Again, it's because I just didn't listen to music at all, so I had no reference. But yeah, that's that.
I guess this is in the same vein, and I saw on your story the other day, you were posting artists you like/ artists who have clearly had an impact on how you're making music. They all like added up, if that makes sense. And then today, when I was jumping through your discography, I noticed some of your music almost reminded me of vapor wave—that’s not the right word. But a couple songs, I was like, “Oh, this feels kind of Yung Lean and then other songs, I was like, wow, this is very JPEGmafia, very clippng. I know your press release said you're alternative hip hop, but you feel very genre straddling.

I don't know if you have any other specific influences that are also kind of like that. Or if you have any other specific pieces of media to reference. I know, on your Tik Tok , you posted something that was like “if you like XYZ you’ll like me “ and it was just a whole bunch of stuff. I didn't catch all of those. Could you elaborate on all of that?

Okay, musical influences. So, again, I'm gonna keep coming back to this. I didn't listen to music at all. Right? So I remember when I was 15. I was rapping at this point, and I wasn't horrible, but I had no reference point of how rap traditionally functions. Like I didn't. I had, no reference point to really make it make sense, you know? So I remember when I was 15, I heard Yonkers, by Tyler the Creator for the first time. Do you know that song?

Oh, that'll do it. Yeah, that’s a song to start with if there ever was.

That song changed the trajectory of my life. I just had never heard anything similar to it ever before. And I was mind blown. In fact, that's the same day I wrote a “Yonkers” ripoff. I was so excited about it. I remember I called my partner, Sal, who's still my partner. They've been with me since the beginning. So yeah, I literally called Sal and I was like, “You need to listen to this.” I just rapped like this horrible verse that was completely ripping off “Yonkers” and we were both convinced I was the greatest rapper alive. I was the second coming of Christ in the body of a 15-year-old rapper.

The second coming of Tyler?

But that led me deeper into the genre. I found Odd Future; I fell completely in love with Earl Sweatshirt, who I would cite as my biggest foundational influence, especially his Doris project. So that kind of early Odd Future stuff was definitely the foundation of my style. After that as I fell deeper into the genre as well…. Tyler and Earl have this very gruff, gritty delivery, right? And I was very insecure about my own voice as a 15 year old guy, so I felt like I needed to pitch down my vocals to be able to match that sub genre. And I was like, “Oh, you know, when my voice drops, everything will be okay, blah, blah, blah, blah.” But unfortunately, my voice dropped and I still sound like a prepubescent child.

I was like, “Oh, no, I'm finished.” I can't rap because I don't have the voice for it. But I remember when I found JID, I was flabbergasted. I was like, Wow, this man sounds like a little girl, but it's fire. I couldn't find any fault with it at all, at all. In fact, I felt like his melodic delivery enhanced the way he rapped and the way he played with flow, and cadence. It just complimented everything so nicely; I was like, “Oh, if he can do that, I can do that, too.” So from then on, I found confidence in my natural voice. And I kind of pushed it to its extremes and found my cadence and vocal inflection.

So yeah, those are some of my biggest foundational influences. I would say, Earl, Tyler, and JID. And then I did cite JPEGmafia in my press release, but for him, it's more of a philosophical influence. He's just very willing to experiment and do things that are outside of the box. He doesn't really care; he doesn't really have the consumer in mind when he makes music. And I really try to have that same mindset because if you create art for the audience, you won't be personally satisfied or fulfilled, at least that's what I found. So yeah, those are my musical influences I would say. Is there anything else you wanted to know?

Well, that was kind of insightful because I hear a lot of that, like, I hear all those sounds. I'm actually supposed to be at an Earl Sweatshirt concert tonight! That was pretty helpful because all adds up to your sound, very much so. But, my biggest question: what is sludge? I love it! I went on your TikTok today and I saw sludge-pilled. I was like, I kind of get it, but could you describe it even more precisely.

I don't think there's anything precise about it. I feel like trying to nail it down would do it a disservice. I was just like, okay, you know, I'm doing something that I don't care very often, like, I should capitalize on that, right? Like, I should be able to have something that my community can identify with, you know, you have drain gang, you have, like the fans saying, “oh, drain this drain that blah blah blah.” And I really liked that kind of online camaraderie that a lot of these underground communities have.

I was like, “Okay, this needs a name.” And I way that this is gonna be organic is if I let the fans decide what this is called, right? So, I made a TikTok. I was like, “Okay. There's been a lot of discourse, this is alternative hip hop, experimental hip hop, but that's so broad. What exactly is this?” The one that got the most amount of engagement and most likes, most comments, etc. was “sludge rap,” and I love that sound. I feel like it encapsulates my sound and aesthetic perfectly. Just this grimy, dirty, filthy, Lo-Fi soundscape.

I really latched on to that. I thought, “Okay, how far can I meme this?” Memes and humor have been a very strong part of my brand. Because I feel like when you have such a dark image, I'm talking about dark subject matter, a lot of the time it can come across really corny, like you take yourself too seriously. You can attract the wrong kind of, like, edge lords and whatnot. So, I feel like you can balance that out with presenting yourself in a more lighthearted way outside of the music. I feel like that's been pretty successful. The people that have been attracted to me seem to be mostly quite free-spirited, progressive young people, which is really cool.

So, I took the based and red-pilled meme and I just thought of that, like, tweeted based on sludge pill. And it was funny because at literally the same time someone commented, “Oh, this is based and sludge-pilled,” and they didn't see the tweet or anything. So, I just found that really funny. But yeah, I guess to answer your question, like sludge is….Oh, no. It's my food.

Oh, go for it…..So what’s on the menu?

I just got some KFC. Most days, I have to order out because I work on music literally all day and I have no energy or time to cook. So, it's not the healthiest thing but it's the college lifestyle, you know?

True. Oh ,so you’re in school and doing this? You're hustling full time, like 20 hours a day?

I mean, I'm in school on paper, but I'm not really, you know, showing up to classes and like getting assignments. I stay on top of my coursework and exams and whatever, but most of my day is dedicated to music.

I mean, if I were you, that's what I'd be doing….So, what were we talking about? I think we just wrapped up about sludge… I'm really down with that. I think it's very accurate because I feel like grimy isn't the perfect word. You’re too clean for grimy. But it's, not tell you what I think your sound is, but you almost give—and this might be the gas mask and arson being in your name—very post-apocalyptic.

Yeah, people always tell me I have a very dystopian vibe that shines through in the music as well. So yeah, I will say that's pretty accurate.

Oh, I haven't even asked a question that I definitely should have read in someone else's interview. But Gao the Arsonist? Where did that come from?

So first, it was just Gao. And I chose Gao because it's my initials backwards, so it's easy. But, Gao is actually “to tell,” or “to say” in Mandarin. That sounds random, but it's not because I actually lived in Beijing for six years. And the story I was telling you about being in seventh grade with my best friend and moving into production, that was all in China. So, my musical development all happened in Beijing. But yeah, it means “to tell, “to express.” and I feel like that's definitely the crux of what I stand for as an artist, just to be able to express yourself without limitation.

The arsonist portion, I kind of superimposed meaning onto after I came up with it because I realized that there are too many Gaos, so I needed to have something to differentiate myself and I thought that arsonist sounded cool. But you know, in context with everything, I feel like that means to burn down any limitations or expectations or boundaries, so I'd have that same freedom of expression. Because yeah, I grew up in a very conservative Christian, Jamaican household, so having that freedom to express yourself, it was pretty uncommon. To burn all that down, and to have the space to express yourself artistically is what my name means to me.

And it sounds cool!

And it sounds cool. That's arguably the most important thing.

That's cool. I like that. “GAO”....I might start just throwing that in sentences. So, this kind of goes back to the you know “who inspires you?” But who if you could collab with anyone whether it's a smaller artists or the Tylers, the Earls, etc. of the world? Who would that be?

It's just hard for me, because I do respect a lot of artists but I'm very, very stingy with the creative process. I really like to have as much of it to myself as possible. Even if I'm making a beat or something. I'm like, “oh, you know, my friend would sound amazing on this!” But you know who else would sound amazing on this?” Me? So that's why my collaborations are kind of infrequent, even though I do know a lot of people that would want to collab with me. feel like JPEGmafia would be amazing, because he does connect with a lot of smaller artists, and I just feel like anything you're doing with him would be exciting.

Most people, I feel, if I wanted to collab with them, I would kind of be bored because they would be kind of rehashing what they usually do. But JPEGmafia has a way of reinventing himself every release. I feel like it would keep things definitely dynamic and exciting. Also, slowthai, just because he's here.

So, you have some live shows coming up?

On Friday, I have a little set with this British collective. They are throwing the show in Guildford—all the UK locations have these weird names, like you don't know where Guildford is. But yeah, I just have a little set in the show from Friday. I really, really, really want to tour in the summer but because I literally handle everything on my own, it's pretty difficult. I just want to do a small five city tour in the UK. But it’s difficult without the capital to be able to book venues in advance and organize all the logistics, but I'm still gonna try my best to make it happen.

I’m manifesting it'll it'll happen, I feel it in my bones. But if I ever across the pond, I would definitely love to pop over to a show. I don't know too much about venues that extend outside of the states except for the O2, but do you have any dream place you'd want to play? If I was an artist, it would be Red Rocks in Colorado for me.

Honestly. Honestly, I feel like the more intimate the venue, the better. So I had my first like show that I organized in December that was in London. And that was literally like in the basement of this private school, and a dance studio that was like tiny, and we packed that room to the brim. It was just 50 sweaty, young adults enjoying music and really connecting on a visceral level. That was incredible to me. And I just feel like I wouldn't get that same experience, like, at the O2 or on a massive, stadium stage. So I guess my dream venue is like this luxurious, grimy, basement.

So, I have my final question, then you can tell me any exciting final things that you'd love to share with the universe. So, hopefully a tour is coming up, but, what's next? What is next for Gao the Arsonist in 2022? I know, it's a big question.
Ah, ah, I guess the end of 2021 was almost a proof of concept to myself. Figuring out that there are a lot of people out there that connect with my music and have it resonate with them, it made me believe that I can do this. So I guess, this year, I want to take that abstract idea or that potential and actually make a foundation now. Like I said, the other day, I was stressing on the like, “Okay, how do taxes work?” Like watching the videos and stuff, because I really want to set up, I want to have the knowledge necessary. Like to be able to make this a sustainable thing. Rather than just throw things at the wall and hope things happen which is kind of what I've been doing up until now, But yeah, that's what I'm planning to do this year, like, make this a sustainable venture.

I have a lot of faith in the sustainability of the GAO movement. It's gonna be sludgy.

It's gonna be sludging this year.

Um, okay, so I guess that's, I've run out of things to ask you about. Are there any final statements you want to say, any mic drops, anything?

You should have told me at the beginning! I could prepare something cool to say…Um, I don't know. My goal has never been to be the biggest artist in the world. I know, a lot of my peers are like, “I'm going to change the game! I'm gonna, you know, revolutionize the music industry,” or whatever. That was never really my goal. I'm a pretty simple person, I just want to live comfortably and make the music I want to make and I really feel like that's a possibility now, so I'm pretty optimistic about the future.

You can find Gao the Arsonist on all streaming services, Instagram, and Twitter.. Be sure to check out his latest single “FORENSICS.”